Space & Astronomy/Space and Astronomy (October 1993).iso/mac/TEXT/SPACEDIG/V13_5/V13_551.TXT

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Subject: SPACE Digest V13 #551

SPACE Digest                                     Volume 13 : Issue 551

Today's Topics:
              Re: SPACE Digest V13 #517
        14 Astronauts have died for space exploration?
              Re: Honking at cyclists...
      Re: 14 Astronauts have died for space exploration?
           Payload Summary for 05/13/91 (Forwarded)
          Re: Pegasus/SMEX - Alive and Well
              Re: SPACE Digest V13 #516
            SPACE Digest V13 #516

Administrivia:

    Submissions to the SPACE Digest/sci.space should be mailed to
  [e-mail].  Other mail, esp. [un]subscription requests,
  should be sent to [e-mail], or, if urgent, to
             [e-mail]

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 14 May 91 03:45:09 GMT
From: cis.ohio-state.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wuarchive!rex!rouge![e-mail]  (Fraering Philip)
Subject: Re: SPACE Digest V13 #517

Re: my comments about terraforming one of Jupiter's satellites:

Can't any of you guys see the humor in a post without the smiley
for once?

--
Phil Fraering || Usenet (?):[e-mail] || YellNet: 318/365-5418
''It hardly mattered now; it was, in fact, a fine and enviable
madness, this delusion that all questions have answers, and nothing is
beyond the reach of a strong left arm.`` - Larry Niven and Jerry
Pournelle, _The Mote in God's Eye_

------------------------------

X-Delivery-Notice:  SMTP MAIL FROM does not correspond to sender.
Date:    Mon, 13 May 91 11:08 CDT
From: Bob Rehak Ext. 3-9437
 <[e-mail]>
         (AIS Central Services  -  Swen Parson 146)
Subject: 14 Astronauts have died for space exploration?

>
>             Headline News
>Internal Communications Branch (P-2) NASA Headquarters
>
>  Wednesday, May 8, 1991        Audio Service: 202 / 755-1788
>
>This is NASA Headline News for Wednesday, May 8, 1991 . . .
>
>The Astronauts Memorial, honoring the 14 U.S. astronauts who
>have given their lives in the exploration of space, will be unveiled


14 astronauts?  Last time I counted there were only 10.

Apollo I: Grissom, White, and Chaffee.
STS-61L Challenger: Scobee, Smith, Resnik, Onizuka, McNair,
                    Jarvis, and McAuliffe.

A couple have did flight testing aircraft that was not related to
space exploration and a couple have did in car accidents...I think.

Could someone correct me on this and tell me who the other 4
were who died for space exploration...or am I just being a jerk and
NASA is counting the other guys as honorable mention?


|--------------------------------------------------------------------|
| Bob Rehak, DBA At Large, BITNET: A20RFR1@NIU                       |
|--------------------------------------------------------------------|

------------------------------

Date: 13 May 91 18:09:09 GMT
From: att!news.cs.indiana.edu!maytag!watmath!watdragon!watyew![e-mail]  (James Davis Nicoll)
Subject: Re: Honking at cyclists...

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Mark SOKOLOWSKI) writes:
>
>Given all the flames that my article has, I want to simply add this:
>
>My point is that we'll have to expand our energy consumption and our
>vital space NO MATTER WHAT goes on. Of course we can improve
>our efficiency to use this or that source of energy and matter, but
>sonner or later we'll have to use the minerals of Antarctica, the
>deuterium in the Earth's oceans, and go to the moon in order to
>build a plateform there for Mars, Marcury and the asteroids.
>Our ever increasing population will need more and more, and each individual
>will need more and more of everything. And sooner or later even the
>entire solar system won't be sufficient, so we'll have the rest of the galaxy...

    So, what happens at the core of human settlement when the core
regions have been stripped of useable resources, and new resources from the
outlying regions can't be shipped back fast enough to suit demand? There
is that nasty speed of light restriction on travel, not to mention how
expensive shipping objects is likely to be over interstellar distances.
I suppose it'd be like fungus; colonise a region, breed like hell until
the local resources are gone, and send out spores to repeat the process.

    Ignoring C, what do you do when you've 'eaten' the universe?
It only takes millenia of growth at our current rate to convert the
universe into human flesh, and while I think there's a good case our
birth rate will drop, if our industrial growth continues at the current
rate, we'll 'eat' the Universe industrially in a few millenia. As far
as I know, the Universe is finite, so there are limits (which can be very
large, depending on your assumptions about how efficiently we can use the
Universe) to growth.

    I suspect that the current conditions are akin to a phase
change, and population after the current industrial revolution will
be somewhat steady, but much higher than prior to the IR.

                            James Nicoll

------------------------------

Date: 13 May 91 18:34:00 GMT
From: mintaka!think.com!spool.mu.edu!news.nd.edu!mentor.cc.purdue.edu!mace.cc.purdue.edu![e-mail]  (Perry G Ramsey)
Subject: Re: 14 Astronauts have died for space exploration?

In article <Added.sc=[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Bob Rehak Ext. 3-9437, AIS Central Services  -  Swen Parson 146) writes:
> >The Astronauts Memorial, honoring the 14 U.S. astronauts who
> >have given their lives in the exploration of space, will be unveiled
>
> 14 astronauts?  Last time I counted there were only 10.
>
> Apollo I: Grissom, White, and Chaffee.
> STS-61L Challenger: Scobee, Smith, Resnik, Onizuka, McNair,
>                     Jarvis, and McAuliffe.

Elliot See and Charlie Basett, the Gemini 9 prime crew, crashed their
T-38 into the McDonnell plant in St. Louis while arriving to inspect
their flight vehicle.  Is that sufficiently 'in the exploration of
space'?

I can't recall who the other two were, but at least one also died in a
T-38 accident (bird impact), leading to the 'goose rule' that nobody could fly
alone.

--
Perry G. Ramsey         Department of Earth and Atmospheric Sciences
[e-mail]  Purdue University, West Lafayette, IN USA
perryr@purccvm
He's Here!  Ariel Gilbert Ramsey, b. 24 APR 91, 8 lb 7 oz., 21".  Stoic.

------------------------------

Date: 13 May 91 20:01:28 GMT
From: [e-mail]  (Peter E. Yee)
Subject: Payload Summary for 05/13/91 (Forwarded)


                              PAYLOAD TEST AND ACTIVITY SHEET
                              KENNEDY SPACE CENTER

                              TDRS-E/IUS-15
                              STS-43/DISCOVERY


                              May 13, 1991


          George H. Diller
          Kennedy Space Center
          407/867-2468
          FTS 823-2468


          Upcoming Activity

          IUS/checkout station communications (cos wrap) test  5/9-5/13
          TDRS State of Health Checks  5/10-5/14
          White Sand Compatability Testing  5/15
          IUS/TDRS Electrical Mates  5/16
          CITE Testing/Interface Verification Test  5/20
          Astronaut payload inspection  5/20
          End-to-End TDRS communications test  5/29
          CITE disconnects  6/3
          IUS ordnance installation 6/4
          IUS/TDRS Installation into payload canister  6/14
          Move to Pad B/Install in PCR  6/17
          TDRS propellant loading  6/24-6/25
          Install IUS/TDRS into Atlantis  6/30
          Establish payload electrical connections  7/1
          Interface Verication Test (IVT)  7/5
          End-to-End Test (ETE)  7/7
          IUS Flight Ready Checks  7/12
          IUS Simulated Countdown  7/16
          TDRS Battery Charging and Reconditioning  7/11-7/23
          IUS ordnance installation  7/19
          Close payload bay doors  7/22


          Activity Completed

          TDRS arrival at KSC  3/5
          IUS Arrival  4/26
          IUS Test Cell Installation  4/29
          TDRS removal from shipping container  4/30
          IUS/TDRS Mate  5/8

------------------------------

Date: 13 May 91 21:32:55 GMT
From: mintaka!ogicse!sequent!muncher.sequent.com![e-mail]
Subject: Re: Pegasus/SMEX - Alive and Well

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Dick Palace) writes:

>Fast Auroral Snapshot Explorer
>....
>Submillimeter Wave Astronomy Satellite
>...
>Solar Anomalous and Magnetospheric Particle Explorer
>...


_Excellent_ projects.  And at a very low cost.  Keep up the good
work, Goddard SMEX folks!



--
Nick Szabo                [e-mail]
"If you understand something the first time you see it, you probably
knew it already.  The more bewildered you are, the more successful
the mission was." -- Ed Stone, Voyager space explorer

------------------------------

Date: 13 May 91 17:48:59 GMT
From: prism![e-mail]  (Matthew DeLuca)
Subject: Re: SPACE Digest V13 #516

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
(In reply to me, [e-mail]):

>(we could send Gailieo to get data from 'Stroids)
>>Only if you are going to get some valuable data in the process.  Below, you
>>mention that the only data we have on asteroids is spectroscopic.  What do
>>you think you are going to get from Galileo?  It doesn't have any way of

>Except that the limitation from Earth is angular resolution.  That would be
>the improvement that would make it worth while.

We are *already* going to get info on asteriods from Galileo...they've got
two flybys planned.  Making *more* flybys probably won't yield any information
that wasn't obtained on the two flybys done, but *will* preclude information
on Jupiter.  Remember, you are just theorizing that we might find enough
materials on the asteriods to make industrial exploitation practical.  Perhaps
the moons of Jupiter have something valuable (water springs to mind, as one
of the most potentially valuable substances in the solar system) that can
be used.  We need to find out.

>Point taken, but it still stands that only with the 'stroids can we
>>>recover all the heavy metals (i.e. gold, iron, lead, copper)
>>>that are forever hidden at the center of the other planets.

Assuming there are any.  Galileo will already give us an idea of
whether or not it is worthwhile.  Diverting it will probably not give
us any new information.

[Arguments deleted]

>Conclusion; yes, it could significantly alter the timetable for space
>development / commercialization.

I don't see how your conclusion follows, myself.  We do not have the
booster capacity, booster reliability, manned spaceflight experience,
or telerobotic capability to start exploiting asteroids in the next
few years, and I doubt it will be all ready to go by the end of the
decade, either.  We really aren't in *that* big of a rush to get the
information.

>>If it's not going to make a good probe, then it's not worth diverting it from
>>a mission it was designed to do.

>What's your measure of 'good'?  You mean 'best'?  I mean 'good enough'.

I'm betting that it won't even be good enough.  It will give some very
limited information on the surface composition of the asteroids it
encounters.  You will *still* have to have an analysis done by a penetrator
mission before you send anyone or anything out there to exploit them, so
why waste our time now?  Do it right.

>My point, which I hardly expect anyone else to share, is that Jupiter can
>take a flying f__k at a rolling donught, (IMHO).  The 'stroids are a much
>better resource.  And if our concern is resources, we should do something
>to find them (or find the lack of them).

You have absolutely no basis for deciding which is a better resource, since
we have no idea what is available at either place.  Let Galileo go its
planned mission, to both asteroids and Jupiter, and we'll talk after the
data gets back.

>Galileo would be good enough to tell us if the 'stroids are a resource or
>not.  I feel that information is more important than ANYTHING we could
>learn about the Jove's.

Like I said, it will *already* tell us some information.  Not enough to
determine whether or not we want to mine, since we have to have some idea
about the internal composition.  You don't want to set up a ten billion
dollar space-based mining and refining center, only to find out that that
gold and platinum on your asteroid was only a surface phenomenon.  Remember,
we have no real clue how the asteroids were formed and how they have
evolved since then, so there's a lot of work that has to be done, more than
Galileo can do.

>I'll cross my fingers that [CRAF] gets out of the planning stages.

You and me both.

--
Matthew DeLuca
Georgia Institute of Technology      "I'd hire the Dorsai, if I knew their
Office of Information Technology      P.O. box."  - Zebadiah Carter,
Internet: [e-mail]    _The Number of the Beast_

------------------------------

ReSent-Message-ID: <Added.Ic=gG=[e-mail]>
Resent-Date:  Mon, 13 May 91 12:49:57 EDT
Resent-From: Tom <[e-mail]>
Resent-To: [e-mail]
Date:         Fri, 10 May 91 01:52:48 EDT
Reply-To: [e-mail]
From: [e-mail]
Subject:      SPACE Digest V13 #516
Comments: To: [e-mail]
To: david polito <[e-mail]>, Tom McWilliams <[e-mail]>

Subject: Saturn V DDT&E costs (was: SPACE Digest V13 #494)

>>If anyone does know of more solid figures, please, post them. (Mary?)

>According to a NASA presentation to the House Science Committee we spent
>$13.81 billion on the stages, engines, and vehicle integration. An
>additional 2.37 was spent for facilities for a total of $16.19B. This
>estimate is in 1991 dollars.

>  Allen

I fear this is not much more information than we already had.  Does
'vehicle integration' mean R&D?  Does it include the cost of the LM + CSM?
is 13.81G$ for one vehicle? All of them?  Even the ones never launched?

I was hoping someone might have figures that could boil down to cost/rocket,
not including the landers.

Tommy Mac
Acknowledge-To: <18084TM@MSU>

------------------------------

End of SPACE Digest V13 #551
*******************